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Post  RknRusty Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:21 pm

I started talking about this engine in my "Opening day" thread. I had a tough time getting it to run last Sunday, only to have the video camera sputter out when it did. But it ran so freakin’ hard when I did briefly get it going that I decided that's the way a BW ought to run all the time. I'm tired of inconsistency. I want my lines guitar-string tight everywhere in the circle. And I want it to run right every time I crank it up to fly.

So I re-read "The Revised 2011 Gibeault Mouse Race Program," by Paul Gibeault . I saw no reason I couldn't use this as a guideline to building an engine that ran at it's intended design peak, and run right every day. That's asking a lot.

As I wrote in the other thread, I tore it completely apart and cleaned all metal parts with acetone so there was no trace of oil on any of it. I did it all with lint-free cloth and inspected each part under a magnifying lamp to find stray lint. After removing everything that wasn't engine, I put each in its own Ziploc bag.

I polished the crankshaft, which had some scratches on the rear bearing, but they smoothed out okay. The mousers would replace it with a Killer Bee crank, but I'm not souping it up that much. The mouse racers like to align the bypass ports so there is one on each side of the crankcase. In this position, the exhaust ports are aligned front and back. So I used 1000 grit paper and ground the deck where the cylinder tightens down until I had the ports aligned perfectly. I only took off a quarter of a thread so I wasn't too concerned about changing the timing.

But then I compared the crankcase with that of its twin brother BW, both bought NIB last May. I could see the first one had a galled rear bearing journal. That might be what I heard once when the prop came off and it howled like a dog with your foot on its tail. The brother however, was still fully anodized black and smooth all the way down the drive tube. And the crankshaft had no scratches. Okay, change of plans, I’m going with the better crankcase and shaft, and I polished that crank to a nice mirror finish. Now I was happy, no more, “just okay.” Strangely, crankcase number 1 had its oil groove positioned at 12:00 down the top of the tube. Case #2 had the groove cut at 4:00. That'll be 8:00 when I assemble it as a sidewinder (That's one piece of advice I disregarded form the mouse program. Vertical cylinders only for Paul G.). The cylinder fit with the port alignment almost perfectly, so I did no further adjustment on that. Not quite as exact, but I would have had to make a more radical change, and I decided in this case good enough really is actually good enough.

Next is the Pylinder, as Godsey jokingly calls a piston/cylinder set. I like that simplification. This is the piston I had shortened to regain SPI gap lost to resetting the rod. No sign of a dome nor was there any mushrooming, but I had made the SPI gap slightly wider than stock. And it's the one that surprised me last Sunday with more pull and speed that I've ever seen one develop. Not more RPM so much as more torque, also probably because it's the first time I've used one of the Cox insert and clamp-ring glow heads. It's like it was able to take more advantage of the prop pitch. More horsepower, maintaining its RPM in high stress maneuvers, rather than bogging. Now I appreciate what high compression is all about. This is a great pylinder fit, when dry-fit, it has a nice pinch at TDC and falls right out when you lightly tap it loose.

When assembled with the polished crankshaft and dry pylinder, the weight of the piston causes the crank to rotate down with only gravity, as prescribed by the mouse racing paper. Actually Paul Gibeault says the crankshaft should rotate under it's own counterweight without the piston. Oh well, this is as good as mine's going to get. But here is a video of it:

With that, I’ll take a break. As it’s too late for me to write any more. It’s all back together and the threadlocker and RTV seals over the backplate screws is setting. I’ll finish detailing the rebuild tomorrow with pictures and make a video, hopefully of it running.

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Post  PV Pilot Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:56 am

A nice job of blueprinting there Rusty, congrats!. That's one were you could reduce your oil content just a pinch and it will really spin and live.
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Post  RknRusty Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:20 am

My favorite fuel, Glowplugboy has only 17%. And SIG Champion has 20%, but I swear it's the slickest stuff I've ever been covered with. Especially after a bladder explodes while filling it. I only use it in my TDs, as it seems to foul the glow plugs on my reedies. The high compression might solve that though.

It's going to be a long rainy Saturday, so I'll get to sit down and finish my report at my leisure. I did not realize Paul Gibeault was a member here until last night. I hope he approves of my hacking at his methods.


Last edited by RknRusty on Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:23 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post  Cribbs74 Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:23 am

Good work Rusty,

Can't wait to see the results.

I am going to do the same thing, next years tach race is going to be interesting.
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Post  PV Pilot Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:34 am

yup, I have 1.75 gallons of the Sig Champ left and it's some pretty gooey stuff. Once that is used up, I am going to mix up some O'donnell 30% offroad I still have unopened and "adjust" the oil level. See if I can't melt my fingernails off and fling pistons thru the ceiling tongue
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Post  Godsey3.0 Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:49 am

What is the point of having the Pylinder on its side when mounted on the tank? I have seen many do this for CL. I never tried it. I have always kept mine vertical.
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Post  Cribbs74 Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:54 am

Godsey3.0 wrote:What is the point of having the Pylinder on its side when mounted on the tank? I have seen many do this for CL. I never tried it. I have always kept mine vertical.

Needle protection in the event of a crash was one reason I read about.
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Post  Godsey3.0 Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:55 am

How does that protect the needle? The needle is still pointing up while the pylinder is sideways. If anything it leaves the needle exposed.
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Post  microflitedude Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:58 am

Yeah - you can rotate the backplate without moving the Pylinder.
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Post  Cz10 Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:00 am

Godsey3.0 wrote:What is the point of having the Pylinder on its side when mounted on the tank? I have seen many do this for CL. I never tried it. I have always kept mine vertical.

Well, there are 2 reasons I can think of.

One - on a flying wing, there is no fuselage to protect the engine in the event of an inverted landing.

Two - it looks cool.... Just like the bigger planes with beam mounted engines.
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Post  Godsey3.0 Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:01 am

The typical setup I see is where the Needle Valve is Vertical and the pylinder is horizontal. Usually to the outside of the CL ring.

CZ: Would that not leave the NV exposed in an inverted crash?
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Post  PV Pilot Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:22 am

I see it as changing the balance. If you blast the thing into the ground hard, you will probably get the cylinder and needle anyways. Personal preference and/or changeing flying characteristics.
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Post  Kim Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:34 am

If you plug one of the vents, you can put the whole thing on it's side (adjusting the pick-up for this, of course). Then, there IS no top or bottom where the combat wing is concerned, and you can land it without damage going either way.

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Last edited by Kim on Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post  RknRusty Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:37 am

I do it to protect the firewall from shearing off in a high speed outside looping figure 9 when a vertical cylinder would take all of the initial impact. I have turned the NV to the inboard side, but vertical is easier to get the pickup tube in place and have it stay put, and I have a spare in the flight box. No big deal if it gets bent. The cross vent tubes are in the way of the pickup tube if you try to just rotate the backplate alone. It's easier to refuel while the engine is running when the vents are on top too.

Well, I'm off to test run the little baby. I'll finish the build report later today.

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Post  Godsey3.0 Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:50 am

Will you be getting a video of it?
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Post  microflitedude Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:53 am

Does it also act as a weight to keep the lines tighter?
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Post  Godsey3.0 Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:55 am

I never had issues with the lines with my Combat Wing. It has massive rudder offset. I did not even have to offset the engine. I do need to move the CG back a bit to liven it up.
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Post  WingingIt74 Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:59 am

Game Cocks vs Clemson.... Even in Illinois I hear that as my Step-Mother-in-Law is a Game Cock fan and my bother-in-law is a HUGE Clemson fan lol!
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Post  RknRusty Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:40 pm

Godsey3.0 wrote:Will you be getting a video of it?
It's processing now. It'll be up later this afternoon.

Godsey3.0 wrote:I never had issues with the lines with my Combat Wing. It has massive rudder offset. I did not even have to offset the engine. I do need to move the CG back a bit to liven it up.
The Satan that flies with this engine has no rudder

microflitedude wrote:Does it also act as a weight to keep the lines tighter?
Probably negligible.

WingingIt74 wrote:Game Cocks vs Clemson.... Even in Illinois I hear that as my Step-Mother-in-Law is a Game Cock fan and my bother-in-law is a HUGE Clemson fan lol!
That was a wild game last night. Carolina won in the bottom of the 11th with one of their usual heroic catches after letting Clemson back in the game. I hope it doesn't get rained out today. It might be on national TV at 2:00, I'm not sure.

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Post  Mike1484 Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:30 pm

Horizontal cyl/piston is like adding a bit of wing tip weight. Also prevents flooding the motor when priming. More streamlined . Prevents ripping the firewall off in crashes. Keeps the needle away from hot exhaust gasses and prevents burnt fingers ( 180 degrees from each other).Allows the glow plug clip to hang under the plane rather on top. Most of the combat flyers went this route long ago, maybe it's a good idea.Lots of speed planes are side winders also , Maybe less drag when going roundy round.

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Post  RknRusty Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:24 pm

cribbs74 wrote:I am going to do the same thing, next years tach race is going to be interesting.
Just my opinion, and I could be mistaken, but I don't see any way, assuming competing engines are perfectly built, that any Bee can beat a tankless engine. I don't think a Bee can possibly breathe as much air as an external tank configuration can. Have you ever seen anyone bore a hole in the back of a Bee the size of the intake on a Killer Bee? Or, on the other hand, maybe they are both limited by the reed itself. So at that level, whoever is lucky enough to have the most athletic reed wins that day.

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Post  RknRusty Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:08 pm

Here is the rest of the build writeup.

We left off with polishing the crank and fitting the piston/cylinder.I had already sanded the back of the crankcase to mate with the tank. I gave the tank a buff around its mating surface too. The screw holes in this crankcase are not but a few threads deep so it's hard to get screws cut to the right size so they grip but don't bottom out. This is the cause of leaks between the crankcase and tank. I've used black Permatex to solve this problem and it works well but it's ugly. I want this to be a neat engine without shortcuts. The mouse racer article suggests using a 2-56 bottoming tap to extend the threads, since the hole is deep enough, just not fully threaded. That's dumb, Mr. Cox. So I ordered one on eBay, but it isn't here yet. As a result I cleaned my shortened screws and one by one screwed them into each hole till they bottomed. Then I counted turns as I backed them out. I went around to each hole with each screw and assigned each screw to a particular hole. This assures I'll get the most average threads hooked up, and I'll know exactly how many turns each screw can go into its assigned hole before it jams. I can count turns when I put the backplate on.
Here is the diagram I used to keep it straight when I put it together:
Rebuilding a Black Widow, mouse racer style. SAM_1340

Now to mate the tank and backplate. I used valve lapping compound. It turns out to be too aggressive. Next time I'll use something milder. A few minutes of lapping them together and it looked good. As y'all may recall I have had trouble with the fuel tube popping out of place. But this was a new one I had run last week, and when I left the backplate on the table to dry for a couple of days, it hardened. I originally made an aluminum tube, but this looked like it would work well since it was now rigid. So I just took out the spring, cleaned it and flushed the orifices with the tube in place. I cleaned and de-linted the spring under the magnifying lamp and re-inserted it. The tube fit over the nipple pretty tight but I wanted to make sure it was tightly sealed. So I took a twist tie from my bladder supplies and wrapped it down really tight. You can see it at the base of the tube around the nipple in this picture:
Rebuilding a Black Widow, mouse racer style. SAM_1338

This is an oldBabe Bee back so I had to plug the fuel vents. I read where Bernie posted that he uses JB Weld to plug them on the ones he modifies as BW plates. So, if it's good enough for Bernie, it's good enough for me. Besides I had to glue Holley's bird feeder anyway. So I plugged the holes with JB, and left it to cure for a day. About 18 hours later it was firm, but not hard. Here's what it looks like:
Rebuilding a Black Widow, mouse racer style. SAM_1331

You can see it from the inside in the previous picture of the twist tie.
I gave it another day and a while to cook under my halogen work lamp and it finally hardened. I also cut a new tube to seal the needle with. I've been doing that all along. I wouldn't think of running a Bee with a spring and needle.

Next is to prep the tank. I washed out the tank and vent tubes with acetone and made sure the mating groove was clean. I cut a piece of silicon tube for the venturi gasket. I cut about 10 of them before I got it right. I need to get a piece of brass tube to use as a cutting guide in the future. The reed retainer is in good shape with no sign of having met the crank pin, so it got a good cleaning. And I test fit a new Mylar reed. I had had one jam the other day in this engine. That's what was wrong with it if you watched my "Opening Day" video. It only passed the suck/blow test in one direction on the first try. So after fiddling with it, I made an executive decision. Something I've never tried, but what the hell. I had a new steel reed so I put that in it and slipped the retainer on. It passed the test, so it got the job(another departure from Paul Gibeault's preference). I did a final lint inspection of everything and it was now ready to assemble. So I bagged it all up awaiting a fresh start the next day.

Final assembly time. I gave the screws and screw holes a final acetone cleaning and brushing and dried them out. I laid out a new clean work surface and un-bagged everything. Each piece gets one last lint check. Still no tap for the crankcase holes, but I felt I had everything ready to work. I used a toothpick to smear the crankcase threads with medium blue Permatex threadlocker. I started the screws in their assigned holes and cross tightened them until they touched bottom. I backed each one out counting the turns to make sure none turned more than I had previously noted, then cross tightened them till the snugged, and went around once more locking them down. I put a dab of black Permatex RTV in each screw hole to finish the job.
And here she is... no, this is a "He."
Rebuilding a Black Widow, mouse racer style. Th_SAM_1361 Rebuilding a Black Widow, mouse racer style. Th_SAM_1352 Rebuilding a Black Widow, mouse racer style. Th_SAM_1357

It's Garnet and Black. That's the color of the University of South Carolina Gamecocks, so I dubbed it the Carolina Shaker. It was also the name of a really badass Ford Fairlane 500 at the Blaney Dragstrip back in my racing days.Here's the video of the test run:


I oiled it throughout with MMO after I assembled it the night before I ran it. After mounting it, I inverted it and put a few drops of fuel inside the piston and worked it in, and did the same down the crank tube. I filled it with Glowplugboy 24% nitromethane fuel. It started on the first flip and I ran a couple of rich tanks. When I leaned it out, it ran smooth and pretty fast. The Bee crank is probably its greatest limiting factor, and I wish I had a tach. Maybe there is some audio analyzer I can download to listed to the video and give it to me in hertz. If anyone knows where I can find one, please let me know.

It won't always shut off when I pinch the vents. That's disappointing. It must be leaking between the backplate and tank. Otherwise it ran very well, and very easy to needle. I started with 5 washers with the high compression head. This head is higher compression than a Tee Dee head. I took one out and ran it. It was more difficult to needle and I had to chase it a bit, but it finally settled down and ran a bit faster than with the 5 washers. Since consistency is a must, I went back to 5 and it again ran happily.

I decided to try some SIG 35% fuel, which has never run well in the reedies. I use it for the Tee Dees and they love it. Still with 5 washers, I cranked it. The needle was different and I had to chase it a bit, but it sounded more powerful, and even through my earmuffs I could hear the wind off the prop. That's gotta be good, right. It had a throatier sound too. Boy that SIG stinks though. The 35% may run better with 4 washers, but I had had enough by then so I wrapped it up.

Later I inspected the tank and backplate for any obvious leaks. It felt like the tank may be just a red hair out of round. I did not want to take the screws out, so I stooped to uglyness. If it's leaking air at the backplate, then it can be sealed from the outside. Black Permatex to the rescue. I painted a line of RTV around the interface between the tank and backplate. Damn! But if that fixes it, it's going to stay that way. After I post this, I'm going out to the shop and see if that helped it, so I will probably know before the video is up.

I did not know Paul G. was a member of CEF before I started this, but whaddya know, he's here. Now I better make it good. Paul, if you read this, I hope you approve. Or if you need to add some criticism, I'll welcome that too.

And that's all I have to say about that.



Last edited by RknRusty on Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:49 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post  Cribbs74 Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:16 am

Sounds as good as it looks Rusty. Did it seal?
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Post  RknRusty Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:08 am

cribbs74 wrote:Sounds as good as it looks Rusty. Did it seal?
Nope. In fact it wouldn't needle at all. I could run the needle out to the last thread and it wouldn't run rich. It wouldn't develop power except in surges regardless of the needle position. That's got to be loss of crankcase pressure. When my tap comes, probably tomorrow, I'll put new screws in it and a bead of sealer around the back of the crankcase. This is the exact problem it had before I rebuilt it. I hope that fixes it or I might have to put it in the big vice and smash it flat!

Also, once again after running the SIG fuel the glowplug wouldn't light until I sprayed it off with alcohol, and it has a white haze covering the coil. That never happens with the Nelson plug in the TD.

Mercy, these things can be aggravating. I think I'll take a break and fly the Bean today, if the field dries and the temp warms up.

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Rebuilding a Black Widow, mouse racer style. Empty Re: Rebuilding a Black Widow, mouse racer style.

Post  Cribbs74 Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:12 am

RknRusty wrote:
cribbs74 wrote:Sounds as good as it looks Rusty. Did it seal?
Nope. In fact it wouldn't needle at all. I could run the needle out to the last thread and it wouldn't run rich. It wouldn't develop power except in surges regardless of the needle position. That's got to be loss of crankcase pressure. When my tap comes, probably tomorrow, I'll put new screws in it and a bead of sealer around the back of the crankcase. This is the exact problem it had before I rebuilt it. I hope that fixes it or I might have to put it in the big vice and smash it flat!

Also, once again after running the SIG fuel the glowplug wouldn't light until I sprayed it off with alcohol, and it has a white haze covering the coil. That never happens with the Nelson plug in the TD.

Mercy, these things can be aggravating.

Rusty,

Time to bring out the magnifying glass and start looking for hairline cracks. Sorry it went south! Keep after it.




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