K&B .35 Stallion Acquisition

Oldenginerod wrote:Don't know how he does it but that guy manages to get his engines looking like new.  I asked once and he just said steel wool.  Lots of elbow grease as well I'm guessing.

Rod, I didn't know he tweaked the original finish, thought it came that way, thanks for the clarification.

I used a courser steel wool than him, but fine enough for furniture varnish final "sanding". I either got it at a home improvement center or Harbor Freight. It made quick work of cleaning the sand blasted finish. It is a little finer than your pink soaped Brillo Pads.

Yes, just tedious and gentle rubbing of the aluminum surface is all it takes. Here's what the engine crankcase looks like now that I have applied and rubbed in, then polished with a paper towel - Mother's Mag & Aluminum Polish. Final step was to use a clean paper towel, which then really adds the shine.






- George

Stallion is done except for final tightening of screws and fittings. I deviated a little from the historical presence of this engine by painting the head with Duplicolor High Temperature Ceramic Engine Green paint. I know that this engine followed the green heads by at least a decade and was left in plain aluminum.

However, seeing that it suffered as an unloved child to corrode, thought that with the appearances of surface corrosion, it could use a little dressing up. This certainly beats telling people that it suffers from casting occlusion defects. "Why, didn't you know the first Stallions out of the factory were green? This is an early one!" (Actually, one lie to cover up another one never really worked.)

To clean the head of sand blasting was too much work. A slightly roughened surface for paint sticking lent itself to me  thinking, "Why not?"  

To expidite, I used Permatex Ultra Grey Maximum Torque Gasket Maker to seal the cylinder and head. This holds pressure well and can stand the temperatures. It is also used on motorcycle engine cases and heads. If I find that the compression is too high, I can roll my own gaskets or seek sources later.

I think it actually came out quite well. So that the RTV gasket material could bond, I did not use any oil and assembled the engine dry. Once it cures and I torque down the screws, I can liberally oil it and such will fill the interior voids and surfaces.

Now I'm letting it sit and cure, hope to bench run in the near future.

Bravo. I hereby nominate you as foster parent of the year!

Great job! It looks beautiful! I can't wait to hear how it runs.

fit90 wrote:

ticomareado wrote:Bravo. I hereby nominate you as foster parent of the year!

Great job! It looks beautiful! I can't wait to hear how it runs.

Thanks, guys. Photos and story to come near future when I bench run this love child.

George, did you try the grey before using it? Not that's a big deal because it comes out easily if it doesn't work. I ask because I have had mixed experiences with the different flavors and I was trying to somewhat document which ones worked as I know black does not. I had good success using blue, mainly copper, and I haven't tried the red but it's marketed as high temp. Using Ultra Copper, I have used it as a base gasket material which worked for a fairly consistent time but whatever you do, don't pull on it if it's excess is hanging outside as this just removes it. The blue I use on venturi's and copper on hottter top end areas.

Amazing job cleaning up that Stallion . Kind of like gold plating a pigs ear but an excellent job well done . It is a shame the casting is pitted so bad , your efforts make it look better than new .

Mike1484

Mike1484 wrote:Amazing job cleaning up that Stallion. Kind of like gold plating a pigs ear but an excellent job well done. It is a shame the casting is pitted so bad, your efforts make it look better than new.

Thanks, Mike. How pitted won't matter once mounted. The pitting is worse on the right side of the engine, facing down it will be away from casual view on a profile CL aircraft, also obscured by the fuel line plumbing, will probably never even be noticed on the field.

Ken Cook wrote:George, did you try the grey before using it? Not that's a big deal because it comes out easily if it doesn't work. I ask because I have had mixed experiences with the different flavors and I was trying to somewhat document which ones worked as I know black does not. I had good success using blue, mainly copper, and I haven't tried the red but it's marketed as high temp. Using Ultra Copper, I have used it as a base gasket material which worked for a fairly consistent time but whatever you do, don't pull on it if it's excess is hanging outside as this just removes it. The blue I use on venturi's and copper on hottter top end areas.

Ken, as in all things, it's YMMV (your mileage may vary). It is an earlier product, and of course over the past 14 years, there's been improvements. I'm using it, because for my applications it works and is less expensive than than the newer stuff.

So far, haven't had problems with it on my model airplane engines, but then I don't fly day in and day out and put high mileage like some others. RTV box says -65F to 500F intermittent. Model airplane engine is intermittent. (Most my CL flights are less than 5 minutes, RC most of flight is less than full throttle.) I don't know how hot a speed model gets and whether it would be good there. Also, I don't know how it would fair on a cowled in engine that runs extra hot.

It sealed the cast aluminum head cover, plugs and head areas on my 1987 Suzuki LS650 air cooled single cylinder motorcycle. Engine runs hotter than an aircooled. Put over 10,000 miles on it after repairing before I got rid of it, furthermost trip was 8 hours one way to Chama NM and back. Did a bunch of 5 hours or less.

But a small tube costs around $5 retail over the counter. I got the bigger tube for $8 because I use on lawn mower casings and on my cars, too. There is a higher temperature version (Ultra Black?), but I didn't I needed to spend the extra cost for it.

There have been other substitutes made by others through the years, but this one still prevails, plus it saved me time and money over the much more expensive Yamabond (Yamaha RTV) recommended in the motorcycle repair manuals.

But I'm a sport flier, not a competition one. I don't demand competitive edge, fly for fun. If something doesn't work, I try another. So for me, it is not an endorsement, and if someone has something that already works for them, then no reason to change.

GallopingGhostler wrote:RTV box says -65F to 500F intermittent. Model airplane engine is intermittent. (Most my CL flights are less than 5 minutes, RC most of flight is less than full throttle.) I don't know how hot a speed model gets and whether it would be good there. Also, I don't know how it would fair on a cowled in engine that runs extra hot.

From the description of the head paint I used:

Dupli-Color wrote:Engine Enamel with Ceramic
Dupli-Color Engine Enamel contains Ceramic Resins for maximum heat dissipation and gloss retention. The resins offer protection from exposure to excessive heat and automotive fluids. Excellent for under-the-hood applications, Dupli-Color Engine Enamel will perform to the most rigorous standards of racing, street rod, and vehicle restoration enthusiasts. This durable formula resists temperatures up to 500°F intermittently and produces a superior finish that will not blister, flake, crack or peel.

Dupli-Color: Engine Enamel with Ceramic

Those who re-paint their model engine heads to match factory colors may know. Both the paint and RTV resist heat up to 500°F intermittently. If your paint using the same does not blacken over time would be a clue to whether Permatex Ultra Grey RTV would work.

For this town of 38,000 people, I chose a color readily available at an auto parts store, Color# DE1641, Grabber Green (only green available, other was aqua-green.) Based on photos, it appears that K&B used various shades during green head engine production.
I thought it was a close enough match for my "fictional" purposes.

Does the C/L community tend to favor a particular green? Inquiring minds want to know. 

I believe John Deere green is considered the most authentic readily available paint for green head Torpedoes but I don't know about its temp. ratings.

ticomareado wrote:I believe John Deere green is considered the most authentic readily available paint for green head Torpedoes but I don't know about its temp. ratings.

I've heard a few express that. Someone some time back had mentioned a particular shade of VHT engine spray.

VHT Paint: High Heat Engine Enamel

Got 3, Ford Green (SP131), Racing Green (SP151) and (Kermit Green) SP760. Racing Green is darker and more John Deere like.

I've torqued down the screws and put a 10x6 prop on it. Shot oil in the combustion chamber and down the carb throat. It has like new engine compression, the kind that holds when you put the piston at TDC.

It was run at one time (or times) as interior when I opened it up was stained with Castor. The backplate has evidence of rotational movement and polishing from the nylon crank throw button. You don't get that extent by casual prop flipping. It is a low time engine.
I'm excited and thrilled.

Why not try a Wey West Lime Green with little hand painted dark green marijuana leaves all around the perimeter of the head?

ticomareado wrote:Why not try a Wey West Lime Green with little hand painted dark green marijuana leaves all around the perimeter of the head?

Well, that’d be flyin high...mmm. Key lime pie, munchies.

Marleysky wrote:

ticomareado wrote:Why not try a Wey West Lime Green with little hand painted dark green marijuana leaves all around the perimeter of the head?

Well, that’d be flyin high...mmm. Key lime pie, munchies.

How about:  


Or,    

OK, now that we got that out of the way. Back to the color question.  

I think the color I selected at this point doesn't appear to be too far off from John Deere.


This color on a 1953 NOS .23 Torpedo is more towards an aqua green, so apparently not all were a darker green.





Anyway, now that I think of it, we could be debating this for while.

Great work fixing that poor neglected engine up. It looked really bad at the start. I like the color choice for the head.

If you what to compare to a couple of Orginial Unrestored Torpedo's here's a picture of my old ones:  


Not quite John Deer, not quite Aqua.  I don't think you are going for a 100 point Concours restoration. Whatever color you like is just fine with me!!

PS: Your picture with the Green Props around the engine is now my new screensaver! Thanks!

Thanks FlipStart and Marleysky, glad you like the color and props display. Yes, your Torpedoes have a darker color than John Deere. Could engine heat and use contribute to darkening the color?

Here's a photo of a K&B .45 Torpedo replacement head part.



It is darker than the photo of the .23 Torpedo I posted and still has a slightly more a shade of aqua green, but is lighter than yours.

Here's one I found on RCG some time back that is probably closer to the Concours grade color that Marleysky was referring to. It looks close to his.

Maybe K&B just mixed up whatever left over and mis-matched greenish colors they could get real cheap from some local industrial paint supply house in the area. Sort of like Git-R-Done. It wouldn't be the first and only example in history of it happening.

getback wrote:The engine turned out Nice George , I cant believe ya'll are having that debate on the head color again ?! The JD green looks good to me !

Eric, thanks. Actually it's not so much a debate as it is discussion with a little humor thrown in.

ticomareado wrote:Maybe K&B just mixed up whatever left over and mis-matched greenish colors they could get real cheap from some local industrial paint supply house in the area. Sort of like Git-R-Done.  It wouldn't be the first and only example in history of it happening.

That's more or less my impression too, so I concur. The Green Heads came out shortly after WW2. The US nation was recovering its industries from war production. Back then, flying powered model airplanes was in vogue, there was fierce competition from the various manufacturers. Engines were produced in the thousands annually per model. K&B decided to add a little eye candy to their engines by painting heads green. Duromatic decided to paint / anodize their McCoy engine heads red.

They did anything at the lowest cost to gain a sale. Thus they probably contracted with whomever paint supplier they could, who had the lowest unit cost for paint that met their requirements and delivery schedules. For all I know, may be some of that green paint initially was left over stock from the war. (The Army: If it doesn't grow, pick it up. If it doesn't move, paint it! )

GallopingGhostler wrote:

ticomareado wrote:Maybe K&B just mixed up whatever left over and mis-matched greenish colors they could get real cheap from some local industrial paint supply house in the area. Sort of like Git-R-Done.  It wouldn't be the first and only example in history of it happening.

That's more or less my impression too, so I concur. The Green Heads came out shortly after WW2. The US nation was recovering its industries from war production. Back then, flying powered model airplanes was in vogue, there was fierce competition from the various manufacturers. Engines were produced in the thousands annually per model. K&B decided to add a little eye candy to their engines by painting heads green. Duromatic decided to paint / anodize their McCoy engine heads red.

They did anything at the lowest cost to gain a sale. Thus they probably contracted with whomever paint supplier they could, who had the lowest unit cost for paint that met their requirements and delivery schedules. For all I know, may be some of that green paint initially was left over stock from the war. (The Army: If it doesn't grow, pick it up. If it doesn't move, paint it! )

That's not an unfamiliar concept George. If I can stray from the subject slightly, there has always been an ongoing debate about the colour used on the Ferguson TE range of tractors. Everyone seems to be the expert and claims to have the "correct" colour. It would seem that there can never be a "correct" colour because there was significant variation from the factory, due aparantly to Harry Ferguson's ability to cut costs wherever he could. Legend has it that following WW2 Harry purchased a large quantity of surplus Battleship Grey paint from the government. However the colour came out of the can was what that run of tractors ended up. Different batches were mixed together, different factories got different batches etc. etc.

So, whoever says "your Ferguson's the wrong colour" (which happens constantly) is wrong, because there is no exact "right" colour for the grey models.

Who knows, you might be right George. Companies were out to save a dollar, K&B no different. Paint matching was unimportant because of the small size of the painted part. "Near enough is good enough" was probably the order of the day, when seeking the best deal on the paint they used.

Oldenginerod wrote:So, whoever says "your Ferguson's the wrong colour" (which happens constantly) is wrong, because there is no exact "right" colour for the grey models.

Rod, I hear you. Speaking of how color can be contentious, I left my Testors McCoy .35 Red Head in plain aluminum after cleaning. I did this because it would run a little cooler and I wouldn't have to worry about darkening red paint, if incompatible.

I sometimes get the feeling that similar to ice skating, where the girl is always skimpily dressed and the guy covered from head to hands to toe in order to score well from the judges, there is a certain amount of pop cult antics within some "elite" crowds. Some years back, may be 30, one modeler had painted his WW2 CL warbird with non-gloss paint, faded weathering, simulated paint worn off on frequently accessed airframe cover panels, walkway step wear from pilots and crews, carbon suit on gun tips and surrounding surfaces, exhaust suit on fuselage behind the cowl. It was a very realistic job this modeler did to represent real life. A control line editor in a major modeling magazine decried the fact that the judges deducted points because it was not the standard glossy non-scale beauty appearance.

Those Fergusons must be in some sort of historical beauty pageant.

Who knows, you might be right George.  Companies were out to save a dollar, K&B no different.  Paint matching was unimportant because of the small size of the painted part.  "Near enough is good enough" was probably the order of the day, when seeking the best deal on the paint they used.

When I read about the way kits were made, why they used the wood they did, used partial instead of full plans to save on printing costs, etc., gathered it was no different regarding the engines. People were more in tune to making ends meet than accumulate $10,000 in credit card debt. I didn't mind those kits, because still one could build a good model, always kept a few sheets of balsa to remake parts where in the kit were unsuitable.

All that has changed to low wage import stuff from overseas.